Dr. Ginger Gilmore on the Mental Health Journey of Collegiate Athletes
About the episode
On this episode, Walt is joined by Dr. Ginger Gilmore, Director of Behavioral Medicine and Athletic Trainer at the University of Alabama. Dr. Gilmore has been with Alabama for nearly 30 years, including the last 16 with the school’s football team where she works closely with Head Coach Nick Saban to spearhead mental health efforts for the team. She’s also responsible for creating the behavioral health program for the entire athletic department at Alabama which is now considered the premier program in the NCAA. In this episode, Dr. Gilmore discusses her work in helping support the mental health of student athletes and the “why” behind the behavioral health program. She also talks about the contributing factors to the rise in mental health challenges and offers insight for coaches, teammates and family members.
About Dr. Ginger Gilmore
Dr. Ginger Gilmore is the Director of Behavioral Medicine and Athletic Training at the University of Alabama, where she has worked for nearly 30 years, including the last 16 with a highly successful football program, which has won a record number of SEC and national championships. Ginger was actually recruited by head coach Nick Saban when he first joined Alabama in 2007 and has since spearheaded coach Saban's mental health efforts, now managing the entire Alabama athletic department, which is made up of 17 different teams. Ginger has created the premier program in the NCAA. Her tenure in football has included six national championships, eight SEC championships, and she has worked with more than 100 players who have gone on to star in the NFL. However, Ginger's most significant accomplishments have been treating athletes who have struggled with their mental health and getting them back into competition.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Welcome to Athletes OnBalance, where we talk to athletes, coaches and experts about mental health and sports. This is a stigma-free zone for inner thoughts and outer conversations. We're helping athletes and anyone with mental health challenges perform at their best on and off the field.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the first episode of Athletes OnBalance. I'm your host Walt Norley, the founder and CEO of OnBalance. Today, I'm joined by a mental health expert who has built one of the nation's leading mental health care programs in collision athletics. Dr. Ginger Gilmore is the Director of Behavioral Medicine and Athletic Training at the University of Alabama, where she has worked for nearly 30 years, including the last 16 with a highly successful football program, which has won a record number of SEC and national championships. Ginger was actually recruited by head coach Nick Saban when he first joined Alabama in 2007 and has since spearheaded coach Saban's mental health efforts, now managing the entire Alabama athletic department, which is made up of 17 different teams. Ginger has created the premier program in the NCAA. Her tenure in football has included six national championships, eight SEC championships, and she has worked with more than 100 players who have gone on to star in the NFL. However, Ginger's most significant accomplishments have been treating athletes who have struggled with their mental health and getting them back into competition. Ginger and I have gotten to know each other over the last year, and we share a strong belief in the need for mental health care, in particular, mental health care for athletes. This is a cause that is near and dear to me. Personally, I have managed a bipolar disorder for four decades as I have built technology companies, and looking back, probably since my early days playing quarterback at both Ohio State and the University of Georgia. I'm looking forward to discussing the intersection of mental health and sports. I can't think of a better first guest for Athletes OnBalance. Ginger, thank you for joining. It is great to see you.
Thanks, Walt. I'm happy to be here.
So you've developed the premier program, as I mentioned, in college athletics. Let's begin with the Crimson Tide, the gold standard, which is impressive, obviously. But for you and your focus with your team, it's really not always about winning championships or recruiting year in, year out the elite athletes that you bring into the program. The athletic department has, impressively, invested heavily in the overall well-being of the student athlete. What's the driver behind that and what makes the program so special?
I think the driver behind that is the fact that we have a great leader, not only in Nick Saban, but in Greg Byrne, our athletic director. Coach started this push in '07 when he arrived, we've had something in place but Coach Saban's passion is taking care of the student athlete and mental health is a big part of that. So as he incorporated that in the football world, it spread out through to the other sports, and now our athletic director, Greg Byrne, is passionate about providing mental health services, as well as the president of our University, Dr. Bell. So with their support, we're able to be successful to offer resources to all student athletes, not just for football.
So you have a unique background with both your athletic training background, you were in a variety of different sports prior to coming over and having an athletic training background. We're experienced with the football team. How has that experience, you know, marrying the two between the athletic trainer and mental healthcare and how you approach mental healthcare?
I think athletic training is the main aspect of what makes integration of behavioral health and mental healthcare and athletics happen. We've started it from that angle. So, going from athletic training and then incorporating the mental health aspect of it gave us the platform and the open door to reach the athletes. An athletic trainer, I've been one since 1989, is someone who is a service-oriented medical provider, so we are constantly with the student athlete. We are taking care of the student athlete from head to toe. We are with them during practice, we are with them during competition during the offseason, during traveling, for a period of four years, give or take. And so, during that time, they're 17 to 23 years old. They experienced a lot of ups and downs. So they flourish, and they languish. And as an athletic trainer serving that population, you really have a big impact on their life. So what better way, and this comes from Nick Saban, this was his idea to incorporate a mental health person as an athletic training staff within his football program. So it goes across the board to all the sports. If you're there as an athletic trainer, you are the go-to for caring for that athlete. So, when they are not flourishing, when they're struggling mentally, the person they're probably going to go to first is that athletic trainer. So that's how we approach mental healthcare. We use the athletic trainer as the referral source, as the go-to, as the conduit between the student athlete and the resources that they need. And I think that's why we've been successful because we started with that platform of athletic training and added and integrated the behavioral health and the mental health on top of that, so we're behind the scenes all the time. We're not having to knock on the door to try to get in so we can spend time with athletes, we're already there. We are there caring for them every day.
So, your trainers, athletic trainers, what's their knowledge level in the mental healthcare world? I assume they're on the frontline, what you said is for identification.
They're on the frontline, and they're our referral source. So, they're first responders for athletic injuries, they're first responders for crises, they're first responders for mental health, and they're first responders for nutrition. So, as a certified and licensed athletic trainer, you do have education in behavioral and mental healthcare. You're not a mental healthcare provider, but you're a licensed and certified allied healthcare professional. So, when the athletic trainers see someone struggling, we have training for our staff so that they know the mental health emergency action plan, they know the panic attack protocol, they understand the referral process to get mental health resources for their student athlete, and that's one way referrals can come to us. There are several other ways that we can get referrals for resources too. But that athletic trainer is the boots on the ground for us, as well as the behavioral medicine staff that we're growing that's now integrating with the athletic trainer in the area of social work.
So you have, within that or expanding upon that, your stakeholder group. Can you talk a little bit about that? When somebody has been identified, and then there's an assessment of an issue, how does that get managed with the various stakeholders and who would they include?
So, we have a referral process. A referral could come from a coach, a fellow team member, an academic referral from a tutor or from a professor, we can have referrals from family members, a referral from the athletic trainer themselves, even a physician can have a referral. So, with so many different directions to receive referrals from, that helps us to not drop a student athlete that's in need. Do we see every single person, do they self-report? No, they don't. But with this increased awareness that we have with our stakeholders and our staff, we can see the red flags and identify those, and then have a nice conversation with the student athlete and see if they do need resources if they're willing to try something. Or, we'll do some screening tools with teams, and we'll be able to pull any athletes that may seem like they're struggling from a screening tool perspective and have a conversation with them. So the behavioral medicine team has the ability to do some brief interventions, where it's just simply a conversation to see how that student athlete is doing, and then offer them resources at the end of that conversation. And maybe that's the first conversation that you ever have. But it opens up the door to employing some of those resources or even understanding who their staff members are that can help them in the mental health area. So stakeholders are important. It's important for them to know their role and how to assess the resources and where to send the student athlete.
Well, I'm going to get down to downstream here a little bit with the stigma that's associated and, you know, perhaps some of the stakeholders that have been involved, historically. Nearly 30 years with the athletic department at Alabama, what has been your experience seeing the evolution of mental health and the acceptance for mental healthcare within athletics?
When I first arrived here in '96, we had a psychiatrist, and we had some outsourced areas that we could go to if anyone needed some emergent care. But really, mental health was not in the conversation. It was physical health, well-being in that capacity. Can you practice, can you play because of athletic injury or illness. So mental health was not in the forefront at all, and it was an afterthought. We didn't really notice if people were struggling mentally. As the years and decades have evolved, there's been more and more of a need, and with the addition of a coach like Nick Saban who brought it to the forefront for all sports, now, the atmosphere is totally different. The student athletes understand where the resources are, the stakeholders, the coaches know how to reach out and say, "I don't know what to do with this student athlete, I need help." Whereas before, that was not the case. You were expected to show up for practice, show up for weight, show up for games and do whatever it was to complete the task, whether you were struggling or not. Someone struggled with an ACL, you would want to treat the ACL, but no one mentioned if they were struggling with any mental health issues like depression or anxiety.
It was the days of mental toughness, and you push through.
You push through and no one spoke of it. I can't tell you that I'm sad and can't practice, I can't tell you that I feel depressed and don't want to wake up, because I'm supposed to be very tough, whether I'm a male or female. I'm supposed to be tough, and that's why you recruited me. I'm not supposed to have any flaws or anything that would keep me from practicing. And that's the difference today, these issues are now talked about and it's not considered a flaw. It's considered something that we can work through.
Let me switch gears a little bit. So, I'd like to give our listeners a better sense of the impact that you have with the student athletes. Without disclosing the identity of an athlete, obviously, can you share a story that speaks to the impact of your work at Alabama, and how you've helped an athlete who was really struggling with their mental health and had a positive outcome?
I can. And I want to say that it takes a team, it's not just me. I have great supervisors and stakeholders and athletic directors that help us do this. But again, going back to the athletic training aspect of providing that integrated behavioral healthcare, I do have several examples. But one recently came to mind of an athlete that I saw this past fall. This athlete came here right after the death of his father and was struggling, and a transition to get here as a freshman at this level is a really big deal, whatever sport it is. So as you navigate along your freshman year, and as this athlete navigated, he began to struggle. And that was noticed. And so we applied resources, but his struggle just became great. And we added resources and added resources, and it wasn't working. He could not flourish here. And eventually, after three years, he went home. He went home to the care of his family. And we were very concerned about this individual. It was touch-and-go and very serious in areas of depression, and whether or not he can be successful as an athlete, but also as a regular student, and then as a person. And so, I haven't seen him in years. And finally, this past fall, he came up to me and I didn't recognize him. And he told me who he was and tears just flooded over me and he gave me the biggest hug. And he looked so good, unrecognizable. He thanked us for all that we did for him. He told me that he is now holding down a very good job and he has reconciled with some of his family. And it was just such a great moment for him and for me and for all of our staff because, literally, we were concerned for this particular student athlete on a day-to-day basis. Was he okay? Can we contact him? If he wasn't calling us back, where was he? Going to his apartment to find him, all of these things were concerns for us. And then to see him now was just an answered prayer. It was an answered prayer. He described us as being a huge impact in his life. And he thanked our athletic department for that. And that was so touching to me. It's a win-win story. There are stories that may not have turned out as great, but that one story of someone who was so severe, one of the most severe student athletes that we've worked with, is extremely touching to me.
Well, that's a beautiful story. And what a wonderful thing, after all that time, for you to see the impact that you and your team have on people. And just not athletes, the people side of it, and helping somebody with a lifetime education, knowledge, coping skills. And I'm sure you have other stories like that, but thank you for sharing that. We all just came through a major pandemic. The world was shaken up. There really isn't a generation that was not affected by the pandemic. As you probably know, the adolescent community, in particular, was hard hit with isolation and lack of socialization. And as you mentioned, I mean, those adolescents turn into college-age students, student athletes, that window between 17-23, 24 years old that come in as teenagers. What have you seen from COVID? What did you see when it was going on at its height? And what has trended toward the present day?
So, good question, Walt. So, I can say, I remember where I was when we called it for spring. It was March 13 on a Friday prior to spring break. We'd had one spring practice for football, and we got the word when we were all going home. So, we made as many plans as we could to try to keep, in particular, just talking about football, our team together. And we provided Apple watches and made plans for virtual meetings, and all types of immediate answers that we could find for what was about to happen. So then we dispersed and we were all away from one another, and we were concerned of how the team would respond. And specifically, for football, they came together, they bonded, they met virtually. Our other sports, we offered a lot of virtual meetings for them. We had our psychologist have group programming, and a lot of people logged on. So we kept going. So that to us was a win. Then we all came back together, and this is what we had. We were able to compete. We were able to figure out how to have various sports do their thing. And so for that year --
Excuse me, did you have spring sports canceled that year?
We did, from March 13 through the summer. So we came back in June. So, after June, whoever was allowed to do anything was grateful. So there was a great sense of thankfulness that we could do something because maybe there was some normalcy coming back. So to fast forward to now, present day, we have students that are here that spent a lot of their high school time at home. So there was that isolation piece that you mentioned. So they isolated, and they went to their phones, they went to social media, they went to having relationships with people that they didn't get to see in person, so just hearing their opinions over social media or over the computer, etc. A lot of isolation is not really good for the human race. We need to interact with one another, especially if you're on a team. So they jumped back in and this would be the recruiting class from last year. And here they are, they were recruited virtually. They're now in classrooms. They haven't been in classrooms for a couple of years. They're trying to negotiate being a Division I athlete, and then all of this change is happening. So it really was disruptive. It was disruptive to all the student athletes and regular students too. So you see an increase in depression and anxiety, and you see an increase in worry and stress. That's in addition to COVID, I think. And so, now, this new class that is in this year, they've had a little bit of normalcy after COVID, and they are managing the transition a little bit better, but there's still that stress, worry, depression and anxiety piece. And because everything was turned upside down, the world is new now. It's not the same as it was pre-COVID. So you do see a lot of adversity, they've had to overcome a lot. And it's hard for us to relate because we grew up at a different time, and we had what we considered normalcy. We didn't have a pandemic in my generation. So they're learning coping skills, but there's still a lot of residual effects that we'll see for the next few years, I think, because of the developmental stages of these student athletes and when COVID happened.
Well, I think it's an interesting situation. I mean, in terms of the lingering, what I just heard is that the class that came out of high school that didn't have the socialization, I guess, what is that? The class of '21? 2021?
'22?
Yeah, '22, out of high school, came in, and they had been highly isolated, and their social skills in the classroom, and then the team element to your point. And so that changed the amount of issues as well as the severity?
It changed the type of issues, really teaching them how to sit in the classroom and take notes and listen to a teacher and interact, how to do groups, you have to go meet your group in person, how to get out of bed and go to class, how to go to class dressed, and not in your pajamas, how to go to class and interact with the teacher and answer questions, and not have other things going on at the same time. Virtual classes, it's easy to have your computer on, but then you're looking at your phone, you're doing three other things at the same time. Now, you're in a classroom, and you have certain rules that you've forgotten, or maybe you haven't learned. So that's just one example of the transition that they would have to make coming from that COVID high school experience to college. And remember, nowadays, for football, and specifically for football, your new class comes in January, so they leave high school a whole semester early. So when you say this isn't high school anymore, no, it's not. But they're supposed to be in high school. But they came a semester early. So a lot of transition for them and a lot to learn and to adjust to.
They have so much more to deal with than from long ago. Speaking of that, I want to switch gears again and talk about something that I think is extremely important for improved healthcare for, essentially, in my opinion, I'd like to hear yours on the severity levels. And that's the stigma, you know, the stigma that's associated, non-athletics, and then, specifically athletics. Because from my perspective, you have a lot of type A personalities, you have high-achievement mentalities, very competitive personalities. And you have, even though it's modern day, compared to many moons ago when I played when there was nothing that was available, and primarily wasn't available, because it was a taboo subject. It wasn't talked about. I think, candidly, it was viewed upon, if somebody had something going on, that it was a mental weakness. Maybe even a perceived character issue. So, therefore, people weren't treated. But if you can diminish the stigma within -- I'm going to go to the athletic world specifically because that's why we're here -- and if you can minimize it, and ideally, eliminate it, it would be intuitive to me that people would go get care sooner. And just like a physical injury with a knee or shoulder, the sooner you take care of it to get treatment, the sooner you can get back to stability and back into competition. Do you feel that would be the same way if you can, in other words, people don't feel the fear of coming forward because the stigma is not so great?
I think so. Yes. I think it's important for institutions, for colleges, universities, what have you, to be proactive about mental health and not just reactive about mental health. So, we're playing catch-up a lot right now, and we're reacting to the issues that happen. To be proactive, can you eliminate everything? No, I don't think so. But to be proactive and have the ability to teach your student athletes how to cope with life stressors is something that can improve outcomes. As an athlete, you have that social support, it's there because you're on a team. So that's something that's important that regular students may not have. That social support of a student athlete is a positive. The fact that they're exercising is a positive for mental health. But there's still struggle with the student athletes. So, yes, if they can say, "I need help," raise my hand, and then we address that, then our outcomes can be better. But wouldn't it be great if we could teach, on the front end, how to deal with all of these stressors and how to deal with the worry, how to deal with decision-making and coping skills, and that way, we don't get so far down the road with a mental health issue, that we could have a better outcome that way.
There has been progress made in recent years on the mental health front in sports. We have seen many athletes come forward to speak publicly about their mental health struggles, including NBA's Kevin Love, the Eagles' offensive lineman Lane Johnson, tennis player Naomi Osaka, and swimmer Michael Phelps are a few who come to mind. Though, I think, as a society, we have more work to do in normalizing conversations about mental health so that everyone who is struggling feels comfortable opening up about it. How do we keep moving the needle forward to remove the stigma?
I think doing what you're doing now, Walt, having a podcast, getting them out to the public to listen, so young people can hear that they're successful. Yet, they struggle with this. They're successful, they've pressed on through these dark times, they're successful, they've made it to professional ranks, even though, since they were in high school or earlier, they have had this mental health issue. I think that's helpful, and that's the way to keep it in the forefront. And then, becoming involved in the community, the university community, this specific sport community to keep it on the forefront as well. And we talked about social media being a negative thing, and it can be, but let's use it too, and let's get the word out there and share these stories.
Right. Well, I completely agree with that. You're immersed. This is your world every day. And to some degree, it's very natural to you, but for the listeners that don't know, what are some of the red flags that whether it's a teammate or coach, an advisor, what are some of the warning signs that people should be aware of?
There's so many warning signs, and I just keep it simple. And I tell this when we're talking to families when their athlete has decided to come to Alabama. As an athletic trainer, I will say we will see your child every day. And because we have that relationship, and we're the service provider, be it athletic training, be it behavioral health, social work, we know what looks normal for that student athlete, and we know what does not look normal. Our brain is always trying to make sense of that, anyway. So, when the student athlete comes in, and they look radiant, they look happy, they look rested, then that's fine. Now, if they come in, and they're wearing the same thing they've had on for four days, and they have not showered, and they look like they're sleep deprived, those are some of the warning signs. That could be also indicative of, "Hey, I've been up all night studying." But when things start to change, when their personality starts to be different, when the inherent red flags that you have as a caring human being tell you that something is just not right with them, then that's when you can step in and have that conversation that you care. Say, "How are you doing? What's going on?" And you understand what a canned response is because you know that person, you're around them. And then you can ask just another question or just listen. Even listening is something that, in the COVID error, they didn't have a lot of that. It was all, "Let me say something." So, can someone just listen to them? But changing their routine, academics suddenly slides, nutrition is suddenly not important, sleep deprivation, those types of things are the red flags that are the first ones that you will notice. Now, there are further red flags that are pretty serious. And there are several resources, the NCAA has a great resource for mental health, as well as SAMSA that you can look up for some more serious red flags for more serious issues such as suicide awareness, etc. Sometimes, you don't notice anything. And I do have a story about one athlete where I didn't notice, and then I got the phone call that he was no longer with us. And that bothered me. But I couldn't tell. So, sometimes there are signs and sometimes there are not. Hilinski's Hope is a great program that the family of Tyler Hilinski has a big push for advocating for suicide awareness. Their book and their story also share a similar account that they really didn't get any red flags. So it's just a case-by-case basis, but being aware is the first part of identifying a student athlete that is in need of mental health resources.
Well, that is great insight and perspective. This is the silent killer, as they say, and sometimes the flags aren't there. But to your point it's education. You're referring to people being further educated on the signs with people who are demonstrating and displaying challenges. You see a lot. I want to know, again, I know what you kind of live with on a weekly, monthly basis. And I would describe it as times where you're in near crisis with various student athletes from various sports, and sometimes where it's an actual crisis as you just mentioned. How do you deal with that? How do you compartmentalize it? I know you've been a competitive horseback rider since you were young, and you're still competing. Is that your outlet? Is that how you refresh and recharge? And do you have others?
It is my outlet. What recharges me is the job itself. I like to give to people and help people, and then to see the success stories or to help someone in a crisis is very rewarding to me. But there are times where I do get really low as far as my level of energy or my gas tank goes. And I need to coordinate that little bit of free time that I do have well, so I do get up really early in the morning and go ride my horse. I'm a spiritual person so I enjoy time in church and prayer. That helps me as well. But being a service-oriented athletic trainer and behavioral health person, it's the giving that really charges me up. If I can help someone, then that's a great day. If it's a small thing to help or if it's encouragement, that keeps me going. And I think you could pertain that to people who work in the addiction world. I have a lot of friends that are in that world that do a great job, and they'll say a phrase, "He kept me sober today," or, "She kept me sober today." Well, helping this one person kept me charged today. So knowing this person was hurting and showing them some empathy that someone cared about them kept me going today. So with all of those things, juggling that work-life balance, it's a calling, it's not really a job. I do need some time off every now and then to recharge, but the horses and the spirituality and helping others really give me the boost that I need to keep going every day.
Well, I think it's fair to say that you have passion, and you have passion in the world. It kind of goes to my next segue. We need thousands of thousands of Ginger Gilmores, who have that perspective to get mental healthcare on par with what we have on the physical side, right? And part of that is highly qualified people have deep beliefs in the difference that they're making to help people with those struggles. So with that in mind, what does the future look like in the next five, let's say five to 10 years, maybe at the utmost? But science and technology have, as you know, made an enormous difference in other industries and segments of society. What's going to happen with mental health? What's the future of mental health? And does science and technology have a future in evolving the care level?
I think there's a big footprint for science and technology. If you can remember, back in the day when Bluetooth first came out, and we were hands-free, hands-free in your car, well, we're hands-free everything now. We have devices in our home. We can tell the device when to turn the lights on and off, to wake us up in the morning, to even have healthcare for our elderly, to make sure they're okay. So we're hands-free on everything. So it's got to be a big part of the future of mental health to have technology involved. And I think that is happening now. I think the student athletes and this young population of college-age people are used to that, that's what they've grown up on. They've never seen an old-school phone that you have to push a button on or do a rotation dial on, so they've never seen phone booths. So, this is their world and to touch them in the mental health area, we would have to have technology be involved. And it's been involved in the past, but now, the footprint is bigger in the understanding by everyone that you need to use a tool to reach the young people. And to do that, it would take the technology in the mental health aspect. So there's going to be some great ideas coming up. And it's been there, there are several things that have happened in the past. But now with COVID, it just tells us that this generation is a tech generation, they are a hands-free generation.
Well, that's very interesting. I know, for example, you've shared with me that on the pharmaceutical side, there's testing, DNA testing, for lack of a better term, that helps determine what type of medicine would be most effective, right? When did that become available? So, I mean, you look at 10-15 years ago, that wasn't available. And how does that improve the treatment and the outcome because of science being able to create that?
Right. So now you know what works and what doesn't work, so you're not wasting your time and money or your healthcare on something that might not be effective for you.
So before we wrap up, I have one more question for Dr. Gilmore. Are you ready?
Oh, boy. Yes.
What's your favorite sandwich? No, I'm kidding. Who has been the most inspirational person in your life, in this journey?
Wow. I would say it would be Coach, because he asked me if I, Coach Saban, he asked me if I would consider working for him and being a person in the athletic training room that athletes could come to with issues and be a softer side of athletics, and I said yes. And that was in 2007. And since then, I saw his vision happen and saw how it could affect other sports. And as a result, I just kept going and learning and pursuing a degree. And so that's my catalyst. That would be my person of inspiration, besides all the athletes that just need someone to care about them and to show them how to navigate what they're struggling with.
Well, I mean, how fortunate are you to be within an umbrella with somebody that's so progressive within their segment of industry, and in this situation, coaching football and understanding the balance between the body and the mind, right? And so, you're very fortunate. Well, that's a great way to wrap up. This has been a dynamite conversation. I do want to thank you and your team for all you do for student athletes and getting them back competing in their sports and in the classroom. I believe that what you do and others do provides a lifetime. Your example of the person that was struggling and that you saw later in life, it's a lifetime skill, coping skills and knowledge that you're giving them as they go through their 20s, 30s and up. So, I think it's wonderful. We're going to sign off and, as they say in 'Bama nation, Roll Tide.
Roll Tide. Well, I know that was difficult for you being an Ohio State and Georgia guy. But we'll take it.
I always root, unless they're playing certain teams that you just mentioned, I always wrote for Coach, and now, I root for you and the Alabama program. I want to thank our listeners for tuning in. Please stay tuned for more episodes coming up with athletes, coaches, and more mental health experts. Have a great day. I'm Walt Norley, and this is Athletes OnBalance.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Athletes OnBalance. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please follow us on your preferred podcast app to catch our next episode. Join our community by sharing with an athlete or coach in your circle.
